Despicable him! (Why religion sucks sometimes)

I still do not know people who do not believe in religion, where do they get their morals from?

They form their own. Morals that are imposed are worthless.

Form their own? So if they decide to cheat on their wife, it becomes moral?

@Joseph
Belief is mental training (in some cases its brain drain too). We all are born with notion of good and bad, mostly all people as children won't harm others, won't lie, won't cheat, won't steal without requiring a self proclaimed greater than the great religion.
So by birth we all have inbuilt good and bad detector, you just don't need someone to tell you what is good and what is bad, though you might need someone to make sure you don't do bad, for that we have law now. In old days there were social restrictions and controls when society and family in general acted as law.
Also moral don't revolve around harmonies too as is the case with some people.

O, Saint, Have you never gone against your morals ever?

@Author why you talked with hatemaster as a guy ?

@.."We all are born with notion of good and bad"

All? Then where do rapists and thiefs come from?

Cause he thought I was one, I wanted to see where it would go? If he realized I was a girl, he would have taken pity on me for having intellect of a girl.

@Sir Joseph They come from situation and conditions. No one is born a rapist.

@joseph I was reading your posts and in one of them you mentioned imagining the only black spot etc on the body of a stranger sitting next to you in bus. That is the material which makes a rapist actually in a longer run. The ability to ignore other person's private space and dignity that is one of the things a rapist develops over time. Your thoughts are the seeds of your action in longer run. Having a moral face in public doesn't make you a saint, what you have in your mind is what you actually are.

@...They come from situation and conditions.

So if the situaton presents itself, that is, there's a hot girl in the neighbourhood, how will an irreligious/atheist person know if to cheat on his wife, that is, have sex with this neighbour or not?

What's his moral compass?

There is something called love .. which makes one care for those close to us and defend their interests. That is the moral compass for a sane human

@Joseph Situations as in past and the society he developed in, not a present situation. I am not saying that everybody is a rapist given the opportunity. --_-

Morals should should have been written with the heart In mind. Ha!

Why love and not lust? Why not experience the thrill of having sex with a hot neighbour rather than thinking about the wife? HOW does an irreligous man choose? :)

lust is abyss , there is no end to it. Those who follow lust become shallow day by day, seeking fulfillment but getting empty everyday. Love nurtures and delivers the soul.
Lovers grow and lusty ones decay.
We are born with understanding of love, just and virtues, whereas lusting we adopt due to our inability to recognize a fellow human as a person rather an object for sexual gratification.
Even if a person uses other person as an object in mind he/she commits the biggest sin, all are equal and no-one has right to look at other as an object or body only.

But lust too, is thrill and fun. So how does one choose?

what brings peace and good for all. that is the compass.

One can be clever, look around and if there are no cameras he/she can shoplift. It gives him/her, both the happiness and satisfaction. So, how will an atheist/irreligious person know if to steal or not? :)

for a rapist lust is thrill , but for the victim its next to hell. so the compass says its not good as one of the parties are suffering, same is applicable to theft, looting, deceit, adultery etc. The actual compass is this only, good for all and brings peace and prosperity in the end.
For, in few years all these questions about lust won't be relevant when the hormones decline but life will still be there. Any person who weaves his/her life around temporary impulses stands at loss when those feelings leave them and they realize they have been chasing a phantom. Which never existed and which never gave any fulfillment beyond few seconds only to bring in the craving once more. Its a never ending cycle.
Wise see this and come out the vicious circle whereas fools stay trapped in it and seek various method for filling the water of contentment from the well of life, using basket of lust which has no base. As long as the basket it submerged it seems full but once you pull it out its empty, it always was, it always will be.

shoplifting and stealing ? are you a thief ? absurd examples you quote..
Finish your schooling first ... moron ..

@ Eternalname...No. I'm not a thief, because my religion tells not to steal. But how does an atheist know, if to steal or not? HOW?

"...but for the victim its next to hell."

Why care about the victim? Why not be content with the thrill it gives? How does an atheist choose?

@Joseph
So you can't know anything your religion doesn't tell you?

Morals, no.

And it's not MY religion. It's everybody's religion. You need to realise this. How can there be only one God, but many religion? And how can there be more than one God, without conflict among themselves, and hence throwing the entire creation into chaos? There's only one God, and all will be gathered to him for judgement after we die.

Hence 'MY' religion and 'Your' religion are non-sensical terms. Realise this.

The Almighty God says in Quran:

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will not be
accepted from him and he will be one of the losers in the
Hereafter. [3:85]Quran

@Joseph
Your book says There is no compulsion in religion, so you can close the shop.
@How can there be only one god and many religion ?
Who said there is any god in first place ? Did god say that ? Seems god is very interested in talking and convincing his own creation whereas he could simply program their brain in certain way. Just programming the behavior doesn't seem complex as compared to the DNA coding and RNA bindings .. What happened to God's capabilities ?
Surely its not God (if there is any super narcissistic God who would want to be appreciated, praised, worshiped by his own creations ), its an old technique of proving closeness to something supernatural and then ruling others citing the unproven relationship. The trick has been running through centuries, from son of the god, to daughter of the god, to the chosen one, to the blessed one , you name it , its all there since ages.

The classical symptom is all such associations are claimed to be valid based on the claim itself, like, I say I am the only one who can talk to the beings on mars , because I have been told so by the beings of the mars. Now ,even if someone proves that there is no life on mars I can counter it citing my earlier claim, "how did they tell me then ? isn't it proof enough they exist ?" :-).

Getting the picture ?

Like your book tries to establish its claim on the basis of language and lucidity in Sura 19.97. We make it (this Qur'ān) in your tongue and easy (to recite and understand) so that you may thereby give glad tidings to the God-revering, pious ones, and warn, thereby, a people given to contention.

If above is true (must be for you, its in the book) then it itself proves that the messages can be given in other languages too at different times. And until the earlier message is abrogated in original language later, it stays valid.

It also means that a certain book is given for the people speaking and understanding a certain language in that part of the world.
Makes sense too, no reference is given to anything existing outside that land and climate.

Now you know why there are so many religions , yourbook itself explains it, the message is given in the local language for it to be understood, even if the god is a concept, its wise enough concept to make sure the message is understood and relevant to the place and people.

Why worry about those who will be loosing in the hereafter, don't burn your life energy on others who are doomed in hereafter.

Live your life as per the book , for, the hoors are waiting.Provided you are able to take the present body along with you else it will be more frustrating , watching all those hoors with wide eyes and no hand and shaft to experience the bliss :-).

Anyone's guess is who is going to be the looser in the hereafter :-).
Sweet grapes all around, except no mouth and no tongue to taste. Burning with desire in jannat even ? All the best ..

"Your book says There is no compulsion in religion, so you can close
the shop."

"No compulsion" doesn't mean I should stop saying the truth, it only means you can choose to ignore it.

"Who said there is any god in first place ?"

Then you should tell me where do atheists get their morals from? How does an atheist decide if to steal or not? :)

@Joseph

Your books talks to you and not me .. Its for you , the teaching and holy tidings.

@Joseph
Evolution itself has code of behavior inbuilt for each kind of species, excluding the genes which have mutated and act as exception.
Hence carnivore hunt and others don't , its not that carnivore are by choice violent, they are made that way.
All the moral train song you sing about is actually basic human behavior which brought us from cave to cities. Without those morals and self imposed restrictions we would have fought among us and perished long back.
you are talking about 1500 years of history, look at the history of 20,000 years , look at how society came about, how equality came about, how marriage and restrictions came about and how they influenced the development of society and pave way for where we are now. Without peaceful coexistence and joining hands as societies we stood no chance against the brute forces of nature. We formed societies and rules to stand strong and we as humans became the most successful and dominant species. Basics had been realized years before the book came.

There are centers of Love, compassion, aggression and intuition in brain of everyone and the mind acts based on the inputs from them. Live sometime with children you will see they are much more truthful and moral without needing any book.
The book is for those whose genes mutated to form perverted patterns in the minds, so that they can consciously refer to the book or law and correct their behavior, for the other blessed ones no such things is required, they are self controlled and behave inside the boundary of common good, I.e, don't do unto others what you won't like to be done to you.

"There are centers of Love, compassion, aggression and intuition in brain of everyone and the mind acts based on the inputs from them. "

There also are centers of greed, lust, anger, promiscuity. So how does an atheist know what to follow?

"Live sometime with children you will see they are much more truthful and moral without needing any book."

That doesn't tell me what is atheist's moral compass.!. :)

@That doesn't tell me what is atheist's moral compass.!. :)

You don't want to learn , read again. And ask yourself is your faith your own choice or a brainwashing , a block which has been engineered in you without you asking for the faith in question ?
When did you proclaim la ilaha illah ... yourself to become a moslem ?
You were made to follow a faith , it was never your choice hence its beyond your capability of mind to even look beyond it.

I love people despite their shortcomings and so called sins, as long as I am not harmed, in those situations I remove myself from the harm's way yet no hatred and ill will for the one who is at fault.
How come you are so full of hatred and being judgmental about those whom you don't even know , a class of people who are non believers or atheist ?
Who is more compassionate and peaceful here ? Having the book made you a better human or gave you a devise to judge everyone else keeping a blind eye on yourself ?
Get along with your own life first before you start to preach others ...
And learn why so many are leaving your faith of the books for a better happier life sans hatred, violence and narcissistic traits.

@....You don't want to learn , read again. And ask yourself is your faith your own choice or a brainwashing "

It is my 'choice', just like thousands of other people, who accept Islam, "after-studying-it", so where's the brainwashing?

If being convinced by an idea is being brainwashed you are brainwashed by science or for that matter everybody is brainwashed by something.

It's just that science cannot teach you morals.

so you choose it after reading it ?

Good for you .

@...How come you are so full of hatred and being judgmental about those whom you don't even know , a class of people who are non believers or atheist ?"

I'm not being hateful. I'm just being objective in saying that Atheists have no moral compass, hence they are not reliable.
You see if an atheist is living in a religous society, he can almost be sure to leave his wife behind, as religous people see 'eyeing' (to put it mildly) other's wife as immoral. However, the same cannot be said about a religious person leaving his wife on the faith of an atheist as he has no moral compass and his actions can take any course.

Moreover, he may justify after having sex with someone else's wife: "See, evolution has made us that way. We males by being promiscuous maximise the chance to make our DNA perpetual" (Sounds sciency, no? :P)

@It's just that science cannot teach you morals.

Probably you don't know the basics of the moral teachings, they come from life experiences. and are handed down in generations as rules of good behavior. Experience is the mother of moral teaching and not some book narrated by a someone in post epileptic trance, speaking as Gabriel, Talking in third person 'WE'. On behalf of god. God doesn't have agents to start with if there is any personified angry resentful god.

@...Probably you don't know the basics of the moral teachings, they come from life experiences. and are handed down in generations as rules of good behavior."

As if bad behaviour is not handed down? So how does an atheist decide if to steal the tax or not seeing, that his father does? :)

why everything is about sex? go shag and then come back again when you are least bothered about reserving a womb . The trend to reserve a womb is actually the same male biology making sure that a particular egg is impregnated by its DNA only. Propagation ...
Protecting and reserving the womb for exclusive right, so much for religion and so much for holiness.

@As if bad behaviour is not handed down? So how does an atheist decide if to steal the tax or not seeing, that his father does? :)

Bad behavior also is handed down, like beheading, cutting the limbs, forcing others into a belief, taxing them for not following the faith etc etc.
And surprisingly they are taken very well, except they appeal to criminals mindset more.

@..Protecting and reserving the womb for exclusive right"

Then what, it should be made public?

I see that you never answered, where do atheists get their morals from?

The owner of the womb too has some programming, as the egg is in singularity as opposed to sperms, so more precious.
The owner of the womb needs to decide which seeds it wants and which it doesn't.

Atheist get the morals from rightful discretion, and good is embedded in us since birth, I answered it many times.

@"..The owner of the womb needs to decide which seeds it wants and which it doesn't."

Yes, that's why marriage is based on consent.

nopes, look around and find the answer.

"..and good is embedded in us since birth"

*Giggles*. In us? In who? Everybody? :)

everybody

About morality - moralities are sets of self-perpetuating and ideologically-driven behaviors which encourage human cooperation. Biologists contend that all social animals, from ants to elephants, have modified their behaviors, by restraining immediate selfishness in order to improve their evolutionary fitness. Human morality, though sophisticated and complex relative to other animals, is essentially a natural phenomenon that evolved to restrict excessive individualism that could undermine a group's cohesion and thereby reducing the individuals' fitness.

@..."everybody"

So everybody has goodness embedded, right? Then why do people rape? Or is raping actually good?

do you have short term memory loss problem joseph ? or you love to parrot questions to appear wise ?

read above rape and crime are covered in the discussion many times.

Doesn't matter where it 'covered'. I'm asking if goodness is embedded in everybody, where do these rapist come from? You NEVER answered that. :)

Rapist come from willingness to overlook the good in order to attain short term personal gain and testosterone calling. The ego and social image of the self created and nurtured by the social status and power balance.

Find God and sue for not designing any override in erectile mechanism which could have switched off the blood supply to the penis on hearing screams. God is not smart enough it seems :-).

Read a bit for yourself will you ? Apart from reading books full of cutting beheading and violence , also read little anthropology and science. afterall the computer, internet and this site is here by virtue of science and technology and not by virtue of earth being flat like a carpet with hills thrown here and there to keep it from moving. Right ?

Seriously !!! you don't read at all you just ask questions ....

Rapist come from willingness to overlook the good in order to attain short term personal gain and testosterone calling. "

That means badness too, is embedded in everyone? It's just that some choose goodness over badness?

willingness to overlook the good as I said, same ways people overlook the good tiding of the book despite knowing what is not supposed to be done. Similarly few overlook the good built inside, it calls to them but they choose something else. Its the discretion.

So here we are. Both good and bad are imbedded in us. But who tells what's good and what's bad? It's religion. It is men who fear that they are accountable for their actions to God, that abstain from bad acts. Rest may/may not abstain.

It is God who told us, what's good and what's not.

I will go for sometime now.. Have some works will reply later if you have posted questions .

"...willingness to overlook the good as I said"

Yes, and what is this kind of willingness called, bad(ness)?

Absence of good is bad .. its like darkness can only be defined in terms of light and not otherwise.
Bad action is defined when the act is not having intent or purpose falling in realms of good .

@..."Bad action is defined when the act is..."

Who defines it?

the results .. over and out with discussion.

So if someone cheats on his/her partner getting happiness and thrill as the resultant, should s(he) repeat the act? :)

Afterall many people do so.

As I said you don't care to even read the responses, what a shame !!!
Many times I have said the long lasting good for all are the base of action without harming anyone else. Harming anyone emotionally, mentally and physically comes under purview of law and is punishable under various prevalent laws. Isn't that enough ?
The example of adultery you keep quoting comes under IPC punishable up-to 5 years of imprisonment.
No cribbing is required, just invoke the law of the country. Does that suffice to answer your question regarding if one should do it or not ? Its illegal to begin with.
So is deceit and causing emotional hurt using unlawful means. The punishment is imprisonment or fine as decided by the court after judging the nature of hurt and long term implications.

@"...Harming anyone emotionally, mentally and physically comes under purview of law and is punishable under various prevalent laws."

Why not be clever and never get caught, just like many corrupt and clever politicians, who steal the publics money? How does an atheist choose if to be clever and evade the law, or to abstain from illegal acts altogether?

Afterall there are people, who are clever and yet never get caught. Like baba thesedays. :)

By the way, I see you have progressed from saying that "people-are-embedded-with-goodness" to "people-do-good-because-of-the-fear-of-law" :)

Does that mean people need an external agent (the law) to make them stay away from bad?

Someone who talks so much about vices must be full of them. Your psychological profile from your talks comes out to be of overly sexual, confused and self righteous personality having multiple inferiority complexes. May book bless you with more of the same !!!!

:) Peace Eternalname

BTW you didn't answer me, do people need law to keep them away from badness? Or is it that goodness is embvedded (and there are no need of laws)?

@ By the way, I see you have progressed from saying that "people-are-embedded-with-goodness" to "people-do-good-because-of-the-fear-of-law" :)

I haven't progressed from saying the good is embedded to anything, your good book sings about good and at the same time prescribes the punishments, else singing good was enough. Where are you going with self ridiculing ideas.
your books prescribes punishment for everything on earth and yet you are so full of ideas against corrective punishment as if its something horrendous ?
If you do good becasue there are hoors then what you do is due to award, if you don't do bad due to fear of punishment then what you do is controlled behavior. Islam works between these two only award and punishment. It either sings about the afterlife awards or punishment in this life. where is that compass you sing so much about ? Its virtually non existent, its either hoors calling them or guillotine repelling them. That is the whole story of your compass in short.

@BTW you didn't answer me, do people need law to keep them away from badness? Or is it that goodness is embvedded (and there are no need of laws)?

its inherent good which is the fabric of life . else there are not enough prisons to keep the criminals. Do your homework first. Crime and vices are exceptions and not a normal every day everyone thing.
you can't be basing norms on exception hence the discussion won't go anywhere. You are talking about things which are exceptions and basing your arguments on them. Were you raped ? or did you rape ? did you ex ran away with someone or you ran away with someone's wife ? What is your allegiance to the aspect you quote so much ?
Either you are criminal or you are victim, in both cases you are mentally not free enough to discuss about the moral compass.
So the discussion can't be continued, you are not qualified enough to talk about moral and ethics, owing to the fact that you are overtly obsessed with crime and vices and could be a potential criminal.
I don't interact with criminals and psychos by choice. so you are ignored.

So, to summarise, it's like this. If there's a theist in a shop, he will never steal, because he BELIEVES that the omnipresent God is seeing him and after death he will be accountable for his action.

However, if there happens to be an atheist in the same situation, he 'may' check if someone's around, if no, then he 'may' check if the area is under electronic surveillance, if no he 'may' steal as per his wish and leave.

So you see atheists are not reliable. Atheists are moral parasites. They live in mostly religious/believer's society yet disowning the societal morality claiming that morality is embedded in them. While making this claim, they themselves don't know what's their moral compass. When they think that they can do the crime and cleverly get away with it, they commit it, justifying their crime by "Survival-for-the-fittest".

So you see.these atheists are moral parasites. They live amongst us, while ditching and commiting the crimes amidst us. Because they have no moral compass! :)

Summarize ? Theist and atheist doesn't matter at all, good and bad does and that is personal call at any given time, everyone knows there is no god watching else you won't be watching porn to please yourself.
Being a theist may be as good as BDSM by a narcissist . Find some stats of the theist countries below .


*4 out of 5 Middle-Eastern women are sexually abused between the ages of 3 and 6 by family members.
*More than half of all Yemeni girls are married before reaching puberty.
*About 1 in 10 pregnancies in the Arab world ends in abortion.
*In Pakistan every 6th pregnancy is terminated.
*94% of Yemeni children (2-14 yrs) subjected to violence from a parent or guardian.
*46 Muslim countries contribute 1.17% to world science literature, compared to 1.66% by India and 1.48% by Spain.
*Google survey finds mostly Muslim states seek access to sex-related websites (they rank 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and 8 in the top 10).
*Iranians made the highest number of visits to "immoral sites" on Ashura Day.
*Approximately 2 million online users watch pornographic films each minute in Turkey.
*Pakistan ranked No. 1 in searches for "child sex," "animal sex," "rape sex," "camel sex," "dog sex," "rape video."
*Muslim population of France only 12%, yet they make up 60 to 70% of all inmates in France's prisons.
*In terms of cultural/tribal/religious danger to women, 4 of the 5 most dangerous countries are Muslim majorities.
*Egyptian women are sexually harassed 7 times every 200 meters and well over two-thirds are harassed on a daily basis.
*The Maldives, an Islamic country with a 100% Muslim population, has the highest divorce rate in the world.
*Egyptian study contradict widely held belief that unveiled women are more likely to suffer harassment than veiled ones.

Theist are pure and good ? think again.

Summary is : God either doesn't exist as its presence is claimed only by nonexistent Gabriel or other animate characters, or if there is any God its truly is an atheist.

"Theist and atheist doesn't matter at all, good and bad does and that is personal call at any given time.."

So, how does an atheist know what is good? :)

@.."Theist are pure and good ?"

They must be having theist like names. But how do you know they ARE theist?

@So, how does an atheist know what is good? :)
Good is not associated with monotheism and polytheism, do little research on moral and ethics before you ask such childish questions.
@They must be having theist like names. But how do you know they ARE theist?
Now that I leave on Joseph the questioner, btw did you wake up today or did you pass away in sleep ?

@.."Good is not associated with monotheism and polytheism, do little research on moral and ethics before you ask such childish questions."

This doesn't answer my question: Where do atheist get their morals from?

from the good inside which hurts to cause pain to others , actually its strange u asked it. Everyone knows that aspect .

@..from the good inside which hurts to cause pain"

Why not the bad inside that gives pleasure? How does an atheist choose? Afterall there are scores of corrupt politicians, businessmans, doctors working on this principle. :)

you decide you seem to be the one talking about that a lot

@EternalMe Dude, hats off to your patience. I couldn't even read after the 20th comment or so. _/ _ Agree with you in the comments I read though.

@Jospeh And you my dear sir, You just have a single argument. You believe that Islam gives you some kind of super insight that atheist would never be able to think of, because we don't have brains. We need enlightenment to even know that harming others is bad.

Well I am not a sadist, there is a thing called conscience that stops me from doing this. You might have lost your's within the bullshit filled in your mind.

@Author hats off to you too for reading all the comments.

@..You believe that Islam gives you some kind of super insight that atheist would never be able to think of.."

Not only atheist but anybody else too. Christians and Jews though are a bit close to Quranic wisdom, as they are the people of book.

"..because we don't have brains. "

No, but because brain has limitations.

It's simple, what our brain can reach out to; God didn't tell us, and what it couldn't, God did: Morals.

@...there is a thing called conscience that stops me from doing this. "

And how does one know what to include in conscience and what not? How does an atheist know if to offer cocaine to a high-schooler is conscientious? HOW? :)

@joseph first of all god didn't give the book it was talked in 'WE' god has no alliance with anyone if there is god in first place.

@Jospeh I had no idea that in Quran it is mentioned that You shouldn't offer cocaine to a high-schooler? I am talking real specific here.
I could write a book, hide it somewhere, and after 1000 years there might be people claiming me as a messenger of God and following Anonymousism.

That doesn't answer from where does atheists get their morals from? :)

Yes, Quran prohibits intoxicants.

@That doesn't answer from where does atheists get their morals from? :)

I have mentioned many times that the idea of moral and good is inbuilt in everyone . probably its missing in followers of the book due to a lot of hate prescribed for other humans along with beheading, cutting of limbs , war, slavery, deceit etc.

So to summarize the matter I am citing the scientific evidence for your reference , though I am not sure if you would spare a minute to read it .

Adam Smith ,Father of modern economics said - "it is uncomfortable to see someone suffer physically or emotionally. And we ourselves suffer if our actions have led to another's suffering ".

Its a commonly known human emotion of sane population which Adam Smith worded in simplest possible form.

This feeling is called empathy, scientifically it is controlled by neuroactive hormone oxytocin which controls the brain circuit to create willingness and intent to give in resources, physical help and support to those in distress.

The same hormone control the behavior of an individual and prevents the harmful impulses from forming and being acted upon which may compromise the well-being of others.

Though the inbuilt mechanism can be compromised in following situation -

1: insufficient childhood nurturing (forming predominantly hateful disposition of mind).
2: unstable legal-political environment (Giving rise to insecurities and hence activating survival mechanism of self centric behaviors).
3: Absence of social support (giving rise to apathy).

All above were present in nomadic societies, hence they needed an external reference to keep check on behavior as the embedded system doesn't work efficiently in life threatening situations where survival is of utmost importance.

So while the majority of the sane population enjoys the benefits of being controlled inherently by the evolutionary system, the emotionally deprived one can still bank upon verses recited by an a man on command of a mythical agent of one and only all powerful God.
Although The existence of both ,the mythical agent and the all knowing God is yet to be verified.

@It's simple, what our brain can reach out to; God didn't tell us, and what it couldn't, God did: Morals.

God still told about beheading, cutting limbs if these things require high intelligence, a butcher knows better.

"I have mentioned many times that the idea of moral and good is inbuilt in everyone ."

Inbuilt? Then why do people give take bribe knowing it is wrong?

"Though the inbuilt mechanism can be compromised in following situation -

1: insufficient childhood nurturing (forming predominantly hateful disposition of mind).
2: unstable legal-political environment (Giving rise to insecurities and hence activating survival mechanism of self centric behaviors).
3: Absence of social support (giving rise to apathy)."

But there are lots of people who do crime because of lust or greed instead of the mentioned results. Like say taking bribe (just to purchase a TV), or having sex with one's daughter. What about them? What's their moral compass?

Islam has not only beheading and cutting hands as punishments but these punishments have to be witnessed by public so people can take lesson. :)

It is because of this red tapism and fashionable "human rights" and funny law, that Pratibha patil forgave 4 rapists who had also killed the victims after the act.
Next day, victim's relatives were shown crying on TV, "Humari aakhri ummeed insaaf ki yahi thee, ab pradhaan-mantri ne inhein maaf kar diya to hum kya karein?" they said.

@But there are lots of people who do crime because of lust or greed instead of the mentioned results. Like say taking bribe (just to purchase a TV), or having sex with one's daughter. What about them? What's their moral compass?

Lust and greed are covered in point 2, lust is a type of hoarding only, poor and insecure individuals tend to involve in sex based crime a lot.
greed is also hoarding tendency. the root cause is insecurity.
Testosterone is another factor which I forgot to mention earlier.

@Islam has not only beheading and cutting hands as punishments but these punishments have to be witnessed by public so people can take lesson. :)

Big deal, I train my dogs with such measures , they are dogs and can't be trusted to have rightful discretion hence fear and reward works for their instinctual behavior. The controlled moral behavior of an average nomad born 1500 years ago could be compared to that of a well trained German shepherd dog. Time has passed humans are much more aware and certainly can be treated much better than an average trained dog, isn't it ?
Rather being taught by witnessing gruesome events like beheading and cutting of limbs.

@It is because of this red tapism and fashionable "human rights" and funny law, that Pratibha patil forgave 4 rapists who had also killed the victims after the act.
Next day, victim's relatives were shown crying on TV, "Humari aakhri ummeed insaaf ki yahi thee, ab pradhaan-mantri ne inhein maaf kar diya to hum kya karein?" they said.

Pradhanmantri nahi rastrapati .. general knowledge section is empty or what ?
Why did she did it is her calling, but the present president didn't think twice before sending Kasab and likes to where they belong.

"..Why did she did it is her calling,"

Similarly how does an atheist decide if to empathise with the rapist or the victim, what is his/her moral compass? :)

Sorry for the "president" thing.

Her calling could also have been to consign the rapists to the gallows, but see how she made a mockery of justice, just because she had no moral compass!

@Similarly how does an atheist decide if to empathize with the rapist or the victim, what is his/her moral compass? :)

How many time you need to be told the same thing again and again ?

@Her calling could also have been to consign the rapists to the gallows, but see how she made a mockery of justice, just because she had no moral compass!

She acted from the position of president and not from position of a person, there are other considerations which she might have taken a view of, you won't know that in any case as neither of us here is in her place.

"How many time you need to be told the same thing again and again"

You NEVER answered that, and you never will be able to; though a nice try.

This might sound crazy, but how does an atheist decide if to have sex with his own mother? What's his moral compass? ;)

present president is atheist according to you, now he didn't take few hours in deciding what needs to be done to parasites of the society. You didn't seem to notice it.
Some observations for you too .. Answer if you can ..

Why abrogation in Islam ? Do heavenly laws need to change in span of few years ? if so how come they don't change in 1500 years now ? who will verify that the claims of heavenly tablet are right ?

How come an already laid down law took 20 years to be spoken for as much of 6000 verses ? was Gabriel too busy or the epileptic trans didn't last enough or the verses came more to support the life and plan of a person than those of humanity in general ?

How come God talks as we, rather as a singularity ? Does Gabriel claims equality to God when it says 'we laid down the rules', does it mean in partnership with God ?

How come the verses dealing with three daughters of a deity were later abrogated as satanic verses ? Who decided that ? if Mohamed was not able to distinguish in the trance where the verses are coming from then ?how come he be so sure later ?
Probably those were the verses actually from the angels ? How this will be decided as its never mentioned anywhere in your book that prophet has authority to verify the verses , he was merely a messenger.

How come god doesn't condone fornication with animals, and in fact allows it with a condition that the beast should be killed and its meat shouldn't be sold to those known, though it can be sold to those who are of other faith or outside the clan ? isn't it deceit ? How come god is favoring certain people whereas both are his own creations ?

How come god asks certain people to kill others and use all type of atrocities on them, can a father ask a son to behead and molest another of his own just because the other has forgotten the name of the father and doesn't claim there is only one father and so and so is his appointed messenger ?

How come the heavenly tablet has mention to only the religions found in that region and doesn't include other faiths of richer inheritance and science like veda which are not at all polytheist but monotheist believing in a formless god ? Probably god didn't travel to this part of the world .

How come there is no mention to other species and animals in the book seems there are only dogs camels and snakes in the world ?

How come the god doesn't know that sun doesn't go down in a pond?

How come the god is of having belief of a flat earth , similar to the people of that region ?

How come all knowing god talks about life forming from a clot of blood ? egg is not a clot at all, clot is present in aborted pregnancy or sometimes in menstrual blood, seems god only knew about aborted pregnancies and menstrual blood to reason that this is what develops into a human form.

How come god talks about development of bones first ? didn't god know that the development is simultaneous ?Probably god took the learning from the undeveloped eggs of birds.

How come god doesn't know about rape and emotional and physical trauma it causes , he forgot to mention it in the book.

How come god forgot about the basic inherent good in human brain ? he must have worked very hard to devise neuro hormones in first lace ?

How come god didn't mention hormones as controlling factor of moods ?

How come God didn't know that inbreeding gives rise to weak genes and allowed inbreeding ?

How come God didn't know basic maths and hence there are mathematical errors in formulas for inheritance ?

How come God asks the believer to go around a shrine of polytheist and regard it holy ?

How come God didn't make sure that all male are born with the foreskin movable, did he error in design ?

How come god is so powerless that he needs a so called angel to talk to his choosen messenger, whereas scientists and hypnotists can implant complex ideas on a subject with no much efforts ? yet God having all the power couldn't send the whole message in one go.

How come god considers marriage as a contract and not life long emotional and spiritual connection ? seems for God every relation is only about security and money only.

How come God allows other human to be taken as captive and degraded to the level of mindless being, what about equal opportunity ? Aren't all same ?

How come God didn't know that Alexander the Great was not devout Muslim and didn't live to a ripe old age as Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (b. 356 B.C. - d. 323 B.C.)

How come God believed that the trinity of the Christians was Father , mother and son contrary to Father, son and the holy spirit ? Did he forget his own earlier plan ? short of memory ?

How come god criticized alcoholic drinks and non marital sex etc yet promises abundance of same in heaven ? Is God a deceit master ?

God claims to prefer children of Adam over his other creations yet allows the children of Adam to be traded, beheaded and molested. Does god lie too ?

God allows marrying doverced wives of adopted son even though he forbids adopting a son.


Is God an atheist or not ?

@You NEVER answered that, and you never will be able to; though a nice try.This might sound crazy, but how does an atheist decide if to have sex with his own mother? What's his moral compass? ;)

Answers can be given to those who want answers, who want to ask for the pleasure of confusing others and act parrot there is no end. ABout sleeping one's own mother etc If you are moron enough to make this question you can do anything.
Please try to imagine the relation in question next time you want to sh@g, you will know it doesn't need a moral compass to not to have any feeling like that for mothers and sisters. It inbuilt.
See a psychologist asap.

"..If you are moron enough to make this question you can do anything."

I won't, because religion prohibits it. But why would an atheist abstain away? Afterall there are many incidents of incest going in the world.

You don't get simple things do you ? for wise people self controlled inbuilt right wrong is enough along with discretion and for the leftovers, the law takes care. For the remaining others a book is required.
I prefer latest car, newest gizmos and finest knowledge. The book of camel F****** is no good to me.
I am atheist , proud of it,without any teaching from god or the book I know what is right and what is wrong, can't make questions about incest like theists, can't talk about enjoying rape, respect women a lot, never eve teased a single woman, never stole,Never fought weak and needy, and never inflicted pain unless attacked.
If god wants some consultation regarding how to implement some better goods I follow he is more than welcome, send him across.

@I won't, because religion prohibits it. But why would an atheist abstain away? Afterall there are many incidents of incest going in the world.

Whom are you fooling here ? doesn't the religion say keep you gaze low ? why you look at other women ? Doesn't religion mention no premarital sex, and self sex is sex too , why you masturbate then ?
Where is god when you watch porn ? or when you are looking at the women with sex on your mind ? Doesn't religion tell you to keep your senses clean and not allow bad thoughts in your mind ?
Probably you are not a good looking person, covering up your inability to being laid with choice and religion. Your writings don't reflect any trace of virtue.

If you can manage a slave (BDSM), there you have your free pass, least she kills you as soon as she hears your proposal :-) .. Get laid soon so that we don't have to read your moral compass BS.

@...doesn't the religion say keep you gaze low ? why you look at other women ?

That's why I advocate segregated societies Do you support it? :)

@...for wise people self controlled inbuilt right wrong is enough along with discretion and for the leftovers, the law takes care. "

There are many "wise"/clever people who can be corrupt and yet evade the law, just like Asaaraam. Similarly, what stops a powerful and corrupt atheist? :)

@That's why I advocate segregated societies Do you support it? :)

you are now the next god or next Gabriel to propagate and suggest a new system ? Enjoy the illusion in asylum or get epileptic to begin with.

@There are many "wise"/clever people who can be corrupt and yet evade the law, just like Asaaraam. Similarly, what stops a powerful and corrupt atheist? :)

Are you so naive ? What stop a corrupt and powerful human ? Your god is totally powerless this even you know, in end its the person himself who stops the act from happening. Theist or atheist is all junk talk you do to hide the fact that you want to get laid but can't as the salary is meager you can follow example of a holy man and marry a 15 year older woman.
The history proves that it works wonder for man, she won't worry much about your looks and you can forget about the money problems.

You didn't answer following --

Why you shag if premarital sex is not right, shagging is auto sex

why your heart jumps when a big breasted woman runs to pick a phone ? she is not even looking at you owing to your looks .

why you watch porn ? will you watch porn in front of mother, father , sister if not then why in front of god ? infact you too don't believe in god.

You didn't bother to answer any of the observations I asked , you didn't reply coz you can't ?

"You didn't bother to answer any of the observations I asked , you didn't reply coz you can't ?"

No. I didn't answer because you are "assuming" that the person in the article is me. :)

Now come on. How does an atheist know if to have sex with his mother or not? Does he has any moral compass?

When religion becomes the constitution (law of the land), being religious becomes easy. Because when porn's banned, how will one watch it? When there's no alcohol on sale, how does one buy it?

And even when religion is not the law of the land, people "know" what's right and what's not by the virtue of their books.

However, an atheist has no moral compass at an individual level. His morals are a function of society. He/she may not walk nude if (s)he's in India but (s)he will, if it's French nude beach.

Similarly he won't steal if he fears losing his hands, but he will if he knows it's just a few days of jail.

On the other hand, a believer will NEVER do so, irrespective of the society he/she is in.

So you see anyone who proclaims that he is an atheist cannot be relied upon, because he/she can take any course.

@"you are now the next god or next Gabriel to propagate and suggest a new system ? Enjoy the illusion in asylum or get epileptic to begin with."

The system is well in existence. One real instance of gender segregation is the mosque. But what if we go with our typical secular/atheistic "gender equality" concept?

Well, who doesn't know what happened in temples with devdaasis, or with young girls in aashrams or in durga pooja where males take advantage of the crowd run away after pressing the breasts, or in Mahakumbh where people just go to oogle the bathing women, or sex scandals in churches or female exploitation in buddhist monastries? The repurcussions of gender mixing?

Similarly, when it comes to educatonal institutions everybody knows what happens when we co-educate. Remember DPS, or JNU MMS, or innumerable others of the same kind. Had the genders been segregated these problems wouldn't have existed. :)

No doubt, the Almighty is supremely wise and he formulated the laws in a certain way as he knows his creations inside out.

The incidents you are mentioning are are are truly condemnable and these are the persons who should be called the non-believer.These people do not deserve to be called even human.They are no different from the so called religious heads in the various parts of the world who exploit the people in the name of religion.Whether it is Asaram or be Mullah mohammad omar who brain washed many productive minds to the path of violence bringing out nothing but destruction can never be considered believer.And no religion is free from flaws whether it is Christianity,hinduism ,Buddhism or islam.the subsequent discrepancy in the religions developed over time and due to some personal interest and not because the people started disbelieving.it is true that majority of people believe that law can be decieved but Religion can't be so they visit holy places to wash of their sins...kumbhsnan or haj or any other.but still it doesn't mean that an Atheist always need a religion or law to guide his conscience.After all these people live in the civilised society and this society gives them the view of right and wrong.The society is influenced from the Law and religion so it may be observed that the Morals of an Individual is largely derived from the society.The explanations of the books are not the exact words from the God himself the confusion between various versions are due to the judgemental bias towards a specific group of people.I wd like to ask Mr.Joseph to see the example of such variable explanation in links given below.Then you will sure find the faults in the way of explanation given here by the religious heads.

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2013/06/12/no-witnesses-no-rape-says-pakistans-islamic-council/

http://beta.dawn.com/news/1016271/a-license-to-rape
.
.
.But if you are not willing then it is another thing.

@ Joseph I asked you to question my observations on your book and god.. which you didn't.

few of the observations from the same comment below , though there are many and your zakir naik even can't answer them.

How come the heavenly tablet has mention to only the religions found in that region and doesn't include other faiths of richer inheritance and science like veda which are not at all polytheist but monotheist believing in a formless god ? Probably god didn't travel to this part of the world .

How come there is no mention to other species and animals in the book seems there are only dogs camels and snakes in the world ?

How come the god doesn't know that sun doesn't go down in a pond?

How come the god is of having belief of a flat earth , similar to the people of that region ?

How come all knowing god talks about life forming from a clot of blood ? egg is not a clot at all, clot is present in aborted pregnancy or sometimes in menstrual blood, seems god only knew about aborted pregnancies and menstrual blood to reason that this is what develops into a human form.

How come god talks about development of bones first ? didn't god know that the development is simultaneous ?Probably god took the learning from the undeveloped eggs of birds.

How come god doesn't know about rape and emotional and physical trauma it causes , he forgot to mention it in the book.

@On the other hand, a believer will NEVER do so, irrespective of the society he/she is in.

So you see anyone who proclaims that he is an atheist cannot be relied upon, because he/she can take any course.

That is your belief that a atheist has no moral compass. Belief of a parrot only.
Atheist don't form hatred relationship with whole of the world which doesn't follow the their own faith, you are communal to the core.
And why you need to discuss what atheist can't do, what is their moral compass etc ?
Are you finding ways to re-affirm your dwindling faith ? Atheist are more moral than you can ever be.
Segregating people based on gender to keep them sane if that is what god thought about ? Your god is pervert then first create attraction among gender and then force them to fight that attraction.

Some god you have got.

Do you masturbate or not Joseph ? Do you watch porn or not ? Are you good loking joseph ? Have you ever turned down a woman or is it only women turning you down every now and then ?
Moral compass of someone who gives examples of rape, deceit, adultry, cocaine , theft is no better than moral compass of a dog during mating seasons.

Why abrogation in book ? Do heavenly laws need to change in span of few years ? if so how come they don't change in 1500 years now ? who will verify that the claims of heavenly tablet are right ?

How come an already laid down law took 20 years to be spoken for as much of 6000 verses ? was Gabriel too busy or the epileptic trans didn't last enough or the verses came more to support the life and plan of a person than those of humanity in general ?

How come God talks as we, rather as a singularity ? Does Gabriel claims equality to God when it says 'we laid down the rules', does it mean in partnership with God ?

How come the verses dealing with three daughters of a deity were later abrogated as satanic verses ? Who decided that ? if Mohamed was not able to distinguish in the trance where the verses are coming from then ?how come he be so sure later ?
Probably those were the verses actually from the angels ? How this will be decided as its never mentioned anywhere in your book that prophet has authority to verify the verses , he was merely a messenger.

How come god doesn't condone fornication with animals, and in fact allows it with a condition that the beast should be killed and its meat shouldn't be sold to those known, though it can be sold to those who are of other faith or outside the clan ? isn't it deceit ? How come god is favoring certain people whereas both are his own creations ?

How come god asks certain people to kill others and use all type of atrocities on them, can a father ask a son to behead and molest another of his own just because the other has forgotten the name of the father and doesn't claim there is only one father and so and so is his appointed messenger ?

How come god forgot about the basic inherent good in human brain ? he must have worked very hard to devise neuro hormones in first lace ?

How come god didn't mention hormones as controlling factor of moods ?

How come God didn't know that inbreeding gives rise to weak genes and allowed inbreeding ?

How come God didn't know basic maths and hence there are mathematical errors in formulas for inheritance ?

How come God asks the believer to go around a shrine of polytheist and regard it holy ?

How come God didn't make sure that all male are born with the foreskin movable, did he error in design ?

How come god is so powerless that he needs a so called angel to talk to his choosen messenger, whereas scientists and hypnotists can implant complex ideas on a subject with no much efforts ? yet God having all the power couldn't send the whole message in one go.

How come god considers marriage as a contract and not life long emotional and spiritual connection ? seems for God every relation is only about security and money only.

How come God allows other human to be taken as captive and degraded to the level of mindless being, what about equal opportunity ? Aren't all same ?

How come God didn't know that Alexander the Great was not devout Muslim and didn't live to a ripe old age as Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (b. 356 B.C. - d. 323 B.C.)

How come God believed that the trinity of the Christians was Father , mother and son contrary to Father, son and the holy spirit ? Did he forget his own earlier plan ? short of memory ?

How come god criticized alcoholic drinks and non marital sex etc yet promises abundance of same in heaven ? Is God a deceit master ?

God claims to prefer children of Adam over his other creations yet allows the children of Adam to be traded, beheaded and molested. Does god lie too ?

God allows marrying doverced wives of adopted son even though he forbids adopting a son.


Is God an atheist or not ?

"Do you masturbate or not Joseph ?"

Why? What's the point? Are we discussing 'me'? :)

"How come god considers marriage as a contract and not life long emotional and spiritual connection ? "

Because wife could turn infertile, and hence one can break the contract and marry the one who can bear the child.

"How come god criticized alcoholic drinks and non marital sex etc yet promises abundance of same in heaven ? Is God a deceit master ?"

God is not a deceit master; you are, because he NEVER promised the SAME in heaven.

@...God allows marrying doverced wives of adopted son even though he forbids adopting a son."

Not adopted son, but the adopted "child", just to create a precedent that adoption holds no validity in Islam.

Didn't you see the practical repurcussions. Americans used to adopt russian children and then sell them of in America for flesh trade, or consume themselves.

God is infinitely wise, so he created the precedent beforehand.

Joseph's comment:

Looks like you will go mad, if I ask once more: where do atheist get their morals from? :)

Understand the point of discussion, atheist claim that they are the people of reason/logic/evidence. That's why I ask, how do they know if f*****g their mother is okay.

However, theists claim that they BELIEVE in moral codes they were given by the God. Now, you cannot ask "why"? Why? Because we said we "believe", there's no "why" in belief.

If you ask me why my mother won't poison my food? I'll simply say, because I believe her. I ask you the same question, you'll need to give the reason.

So tell me how does an atheist know if not to underweight things while selling them off? :)

(Please refrain from using abusive words in a public forum, guess your moral compass is having some problems, try turning it off and on again)

:) Peace author.

@Joseph
I won't go mad if you ask me once more where do atheist get their moral from as I have time and again told you about embedded good and mechanism of the same.

If you can't read it or don't want to then I can't do anything about it, can I ?

Further moral compass is one thing, abiding is another, knowing what is right and what is wrong is first step, doing right is what makes all the difference.

The actual question should be where do anyone get the intent to do the right rather where do they get the definition and ideal of right.

So the question where someone gets their moral compass is more of a devise to please oneself on having a set of rules and morals howsoever old and out of context they might be.

The approach doesn't yield any benefit except branding and labeling people other than those you call theist as low, sans moral, not trust worthy and more of the defamation you can think about.

This is called hate driven mentality, picking on things which have nothing to do with your life directly or indirectly as your book talks about extending no friendly gesture to those who don't share your belief. So you shouldn't be worrying about the infidel in first place.

Why to waste time in finding out about the morals of atheists, put more emphasis on knowing how and why the theist follow their 1500 year old so called compass and wait in the end to be resurrected and be judged.

Your path ends there, i.e, waiting in your grave to be resurrected and judged for what you did in your life.

What others do is their life, their choice, probably its much better and more scientific but you don't need to burn your life energy on finding it.

Belief has one blessing , it provides the 'ignorance is bliss' a solid foundation. Stay asleep , stay confident.

As far atheist - they are the ones laying foundation of the next era, making technology, discovering new vistas . Find out how many prominent contributors to the present life have been theist and you will know where the ignorance reside ? In hatred filled hearts of theist or the enlightened minds of atheists who have broken chains of baseless beliefs to be the instrument of forces of evolution.

@Asaram

He is captured and being taken to the place where the crime took place,no one will stand by his side once he is proven guilty, which I guess he will be .
The atheists will let him have it peacefully unlike the theist who engage in rioting even when a terrorist is hanged.

fantastic philosophy

Very brave!